That sounded awkward, using all of those gender non-specific “one”s up there…

Before the main part of my post (if you don’t care about the gender-specific thing, just scroll down and read the last four paragraphs of my comment), I have to respond to JHS.

“One would think that in 2008, people would have the intellect to realize that talking about “gentlemen” and “ladies” is highly offensive, degrading to both genders, and a completely archaic way of looking at the world.” There’s nothing to say to this kind of elitist view but, “says who?” You assert that “gentlemen” and “ladies” are an archaic way of looking at the world, but there is no proof of this. They are still widely used terms, and the ideas for which they stand (honesty, valor, intelligence, and respect, as a few examples) are, and rightly so, sought after. Only in the realm of civil rights litigation and modernity-craving intelligentsia are they seen as “archaic.” I’m hardly offended by the application to me of the term “gentleman.” Matter of fact, I’d be flattered.

“I am quite surprised by your tone, frankly, and am sorry that you cannot understand that language is a symptom of an underlying problematic attitude.” You failed to address the poster’s point, and you cannot deny simple logic. You attempt to prove the antecedent by affirming the consequent. If sexist language on the part of men is just a symptom of, we’ll say, disrespectful attitudes toward women, then changing the language is just a metaphorical band-aid. If you want to induce real change, you need to go after the attitude itself instead of attempting to mask it with neutral language. All masking does is to prepare people for dealing with the attitude in therapy once it has metastasized.

And to Andrew, here’s the happy medium as far as I’m concerned: men and women, created equal in God’s eyes, have different roles to play in society. Both are necessary to everyone’s survival, and neither should be belittled at the hands of anyone. It’s up to each individual to decide where he or she belongs. Many women desire motherhood. Many men desire the ability to provide for their families. This is the historical norm. Some people love to be in the kitchen – I’m a man and I’m one of them. Some love the corporate environment. Gender shouldn’t be a mark of division and discrimination, but of differentiation. In understanding, accepting, and working in and with the distinctions between the genders, we can be incredibly productive. In attempting to silence one gender, both suffer. This goes for men silencing women (historical) and women silencing men (recent).

On to my real point:

Since finding the Art of Manliness a few months ago, and the many links therein, and most recently (leading to this article and comment war) the Manival hosted by artofmanliness.com, I’ve changed in many ways. From a college student fairly obsessed with literature, comics, and old movies (I was essentially a hermit), I’ve come out of my shell and begun dating, exercising, and becoming the quintessence of the man I’d hoped I would one day be.

This article struck a chord with me, probably because of a story I read when I was a kid. My parents, for my eleventh or twelfth birthday, gave me a couple of books (one called Tiger and Tom, which I’d highly recommend to any boy around that age – yes, JHS, I believe that little boys and little girls can have reading materials that teach them different, exclusive things).

Anyway, one of them had a story about a boy who made a deal with a school bully about something. This deal was a kind of bet, one that the protagonist never should have made (and, of course, he knew that at the time and painfully knew it later on). The punishment, if he failed to do what he agreed to do, was to be hit with a baseball bat or something (it was pretty violent, written in the late 19th century, I believe). He was, unbeknownst to him, set up to fail. When he failed and asked his father for help, his father told him to go to the bully, appeal for mercy, but take the beating if the bully would not listen. “Your word,” said the boy’s father, “is worth more than your comfort.”

Thanks for the post, Andrew. I’m bookmarking your site, so you may see me back here in the comments of a future post.

Ladies and gentlemen both behave like strong respectful noble individuals that uphold crucial virtues that make life better for the whole human race. As you are a female, I say act like a woman, because you would realize that words such as “gentleman” and “lady” do not in any way threaten you in your life. I’m merely asking you to consider where you are coming from and be honest with yourself. You’ve chosen your profession because you have a deep sense of necessity to address these issues, clearly. Have you ever considered that perhaps certain personal factors of yours make you more sensitive to these matters and take them to a certain extreme of insult where in fact there was none?

As Andrew just said, there is still biological difference between the genders, and this is all I allude to. I could have said “face it like a strong person”. But a female that is a strong person earns the title of woman and lady to me. Exactly like a male that is a strong person earns the title of man and gentleman to me. No double standard. Just respectful recognition of biological differences. If you feel that me asking you to be a woman is insulting to you, I see that as your problem taking “woman” to be somehow degrading. You seem like a very valuable individual and I respect you as a person, and when I ask you to be a woman, I truly envision a female acting in greatness. If you believe that gender association somehow taints one’s qualities, well, not everyone feels that way, that’s for sure.

And for what it’s worth, I am truly happy to retain a sense of gentleman vs lady in this world. Both display a certain level of honor. I do not see how it is degrading to both genders. It is degrading to you only if you let it bother you so much. You know that being a lady of the courts, a very professional one as you’ve shown yourself to be, is an honorable title. I don’t see why masking your gender by calling you a gentleperson of the courts is somehow superior. It’s a glorious feature of humans, and nature in general, to have the two genders. I am not ashamed to be my gender. Are you?

Lastly, I am sorry, I was harsh in my first post there. I’ll try to maintain more tact next time. I hope we can continue a productive discussion of various view points that can help us come to understanding of each other, rather than try to directly convince one another of being neanderthals.

To say that there is no difference between males and females is simply denying basic biological fact. But to say something sexist like “women belong in the kitchen” is offensive and wrong. There IS a happy medium here.

“One would think that in 2008, people would have the intellect to realize that defining a gentleman in one way does not make that exclusively a male characteristic.” One would think that in 2008, people would have the intellect to realize that talking about “gentlemen” and “ladies” is highly offensive, degrading to both genders, and a completely archaic way of looking at the world.

“Do you think gender problems will be solved by superficially replacing gentleman with gentleperson? That is infantile logic, a display of severe naivete.” I have been using the term “gentleperson” since 1980 and assure that I am far from “naive” about these issues. I am quite surprised by your tone, frankly, and am sorry that you cannot understand that language is a symptom of an underlying problematic attitude.

“You must be so insecure that anything not explicitly stating female equality, or women being identical to men, threatens you. This is a personal problem of yours and if you want to contribute, I recommend you face it like a true woman.” Your comments are laughable, ridiculous, and display exactly the kind of attitude I was talking about in my original comment, so thanks for illustrating the point so beautifully.

“Face it like a true woman?” Thank you for yet another example to use when I am teaching. I assure you that your comment will elicit a strong response from my audiences.

As for the rest of your comments . . . ad hominem attacks neither interest or hurt me. They speak volumes about you and say nothing whatsoever about me.

If you truly want to educate yourself, I have a lot of written materials that I will provide you free of charge. You will find them enlightening and become informed about the points I raised.

For your edification: I am proud to be a civil rights professional.